Update (4:03pm, May 10)
I'm not sure if changing one's posts is allowed in the unwritten rules of blogz, but I gives a f-ck. I decided to make a few updates to the map from suggestions I got in the comment sections of Deadspin, With Leather, and this site right hurr. I didn't touch the Nationals or Mets region because it seems commenters disagree on those. But, I felt the White Sox needed to be pulled down. They were a bit too far north. Also, Yankees fans seem to think they have a solid footing in southern Connecticut, so I added that. I hope these changes were productive. Maybe we'll get this thing perfect after all (nah).
Here's the freshest one (click for larger view)I'm not sure if changing one's posts is allowed in the unwritten rules of blogz, but I gives a f-ck. I decided to make a few updates to the map from suggestions I got in the comment sections of Deadspin, With Leather, and this site right hurr. I didn't touch the Nationals or Mets region because it seems commenters disagree on those. But, I felt the White Sox needed to be pulled down. They were a bit too far north. Also, Yankees fans seem to think they have a solid footing in southern Connecticut, so I added that. I hope these changes were productive. Maybe we'll get this thing perfect after all (nah).
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The map above had the in'rnet in a bit of tizzy last year. If you didn't get a chance to see it, you're in for a treat (Click on it for a larger view). The first thing I thought when I saw it was "yesss, sweet." The second thing I thought was "no way the Rockies and Diamondbacks have such an expansive fan base." Then I started to notice more and more things I felt needed adjustments. Don't get me wrong, this map is the balls. I loves it. There are just a few minor details that I wanted to tinker with. So, today I decided to do just that. I put a ton of research (half true) and way too much time on Microsoft Paint (totally true) into the the map below (Click for larger view).
I would have liked to make a few more changes. For example, I know the Marlins don't dominate the state of Florida as shown. There are pockets of Cardinals, Cubs, Dodgers, etc. fans up and down that state. You know... all the teams that do their spring work down there develop a following in that particular town. But, I didn't want to stray from what Nike started. They originally named this map the "United Countries of Baseball" so little islands of red and orange among a sea of green in Florida would be... well, islands. Not countries.Some of the changes I made:
-The original map had a San Francisco Giants following all the way up to the state of Washington. I know that's not correct. Those in Oregon that care about Major League Baseball don't root for the Giants. They're more likely to be Mariners fans. But, Giants fans are much more prevalent in the state of California and parts of Western Nevada than was shown on the original. Those were both easy and obvious changes.
-The original map also severely underestimated the Los Angeles Dodgers fan base. About the size of Tennessee? I think not. I realize that's a highly populated region, but the Dodgers have been a staple on the West Coast for about 60 years now. They have a good amount of fans in the most southern edges of California and even western Arizona.
-I would have liked to shrink the size of that Diamondbacks region. But, I'd be making it unincorporated territory, so I decided against it. I'll let them pretend to have that large of a following. About two thirds of that is desert anyway. The same goes for the Rockies. They're not that popular. There should be spatterings of Cardinal red and Cubbie orange (?) in that black region. If not, it should be unincorporated. But, again, I didn't see the point in doing that.
-The original map didn't take into account the Cardinals' following in Oklahoma. It's for real, so I added it. A lot of those Oklahomans grew up on KMOX, a station that once carried Cardinals games to much of the Midwest. The Cards are really considered the "team of the Midwest." I think the original map did a good job of showing that, but decided to give all of Oklahoma to the Rangers, which was wrong.
-The original map also surrounded Astros country with Rangers fans, which doesn't make a lot of sense. From what I've read and heard in the past, the Astros' following spreads down through southern Texas and into Mexico. That was changed.
-The Braves have a gigantic following in the southeast United States. The original did a fine job of showing that, but I expanded it even more. The original didn't account for Braves fans in the Florida panhandle, North Carolina, or western Virginia. All of which are legit.
-The original also had this weird narrow flow of Indians fans through West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky. I think most of Kentucky is Reds' country. I'm pretty positive that's right.
-The last change I made was shrinking the Mets' fan base. Their following is pretty much concentrated around northern New Jersey and the boroughs of New York City. I'm not sure why the original expanded their territory into Pennsylvania.
I'm sure this thing isn't perfect. It never will be, though I'd love to hear some feedback if there's something that is clearly wrong. In the meantime, I need a f-ing nap.
74 comments:
there are no met fans except for a scattered presence on nassau county. check stub hub prices if you want
Amazing job--totally love the entire thing. Except i agree with anon that there is NO Mets presence in NJ at all. All of that Orange should be Yankee blue
Also- so should half of CT (to approx the Connecticut River.
I know the Marlins don't dominate the state of Florida as shown. There are pockets of Cardinals, Cubs, Dodgers, etc. fans up and down that state. You know... all the teams that do their spring work down there develop a following in that particular town.
The Cubs train in AZ, so the same applies there. But I know what you mean. People from Chicago love to retire to FL and AZ, so there are pockets of Cub fans in both states. You could call those "territories," like Guam or Puerto Rico.
I appreciate it. So northern NJ is Yankee country? The orig. was way off then.
I was thinking of doing a "territories" thing, but it really wouldn't have turned out nice. That's a project for another day. There'd be little dots all over the place. And probably a need for a large map key.
This map might help: http://commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2
Ahh, great stuff.
It looks like a lot of my changes are confirmed by this map. I could probably extend the Mariners' region a little more eastward.
You can download the map at this website: www.unitedcountriesofbaseball.com
Connecticut 50-50 yankees-redsox, and is not part of the "red sux nation"
Cubs sorta have a following being on WGN for 60 years.
There are more Cub fans in WI than Brewer fans.
The Tigers' fans should extend slightly into Canada. I'm not sure how far, but at least the metro-Windsor area and possibly Sarnia.
Excellent Map. I commend you on the excellent work, and also point out that the Red Sox have a pretty big fan base in Canada, specifically New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. On a good night, WEEI(the Sox radio outlet in Boston) can be heard in Halifax.
Two things
1. The Yankees are vastly more popular in North Jersey, trust me I live here.
2. Connecticut is split Yankees/Red Sox with the dividing line at Hartford
Western Canada is pretty interesting because while people in Vancouver (nominally) follow the M's, the rest of the country follows the Jays as if they were the home team. (There is a NY-LA thing between Toronto and Vancouver.)
Jays should be all of Canada. Yanks, Sox & Cubs should cover about 90% of the US. True story.
90%? No way, the Cards fan base is huge. Droo is right about the KMOX. Until the Dodgers headed westward the Cardinals were the team farthest west. They have fan bases in Missouri, Illinois, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Tennessee, Kentucky and the Dakotas.
The people above that have mentioned the Mets not being in NJ are completely wrong. What you've got is accurate, since you've got the Jersey Shore as Mets territory. I would say it extends a bit further down the coast, but what you've got is fairly accurate.
People above that siad there is "NO Mets presence in NJ at all" are dead wrong. They only mean North Jersey. North Jersey completely sucks.
A huge population of the Jersey Shore are people that moved down from Brooklyn. Those people were Dodgers fans that became Mets fans.
My high school was a dead split between Yankees and Mets fans. There were no Phillies fans at all since we're close to two hours away from there.
Finally, New Orleans isn't really Astros territory. Sure, that's what we get on cable, but it's one of those cities that doesn't have its own team so it roots for the most popular ones. The vast majority of fans down here are Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Cubs, and Braves fans. The Red Sox are probably the most popular, and the Mets have a newfound following since that's who the AAA team down here is attached to. Can't explain the Cubs, but it's big.
I love your map. It's a shame that you can't break it up into regions to show more detail. For example, the Florida peninsula has more Braves fans than Marlins fans until you get closer to Miami. But, that's nitpicky. Pretty cool map.
All of Southeastern VA and most of Eastern NC should actually be O's fans. Probably helps that the closest AAA team, the Norfolk Tides, switched to O's affiliation (after 30+ years with the Mets) before the 2007 Season.
pirates fanship spreads farther east in PA than you might think. there are a lotta pirates fans in lancaster, for instance (not that it is without phillies fans).
No one in Alabama cares about baseball unless Michael Jordan plays or a local team is in the Little League World Series.
I appreciate all the nice comments. I was expecting more ridicule. When you involve EVERY fan base, you're kind of asking for it. But, the feedback has been excellent. On the Nationals issue: I grew up in Northern Virginia, did a lot of vacationing on the eastern seaboard... so I agree that most of that is, and should still be, O's territory. But then I found this map: http://commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2.
I wasn't sure what to think so I left that area alone.. ? I probably should have gone with my original instinct.
Depending on how they're doing, the Indians fan base can extend into southern Ohio. Columbus, maybe even farther south.
Otherwise looks about right to me.
a few revisions on florida that haven't been mentioned. pretty much everything north of orlando is braves country though, but due to the northeast transplants in the southern parts of the state, they overtake the marlins in several areas. there should be a pocket of mets fans around st. lucie (mets minor league team), yankee pocket in palm beach because of the high new york population down here (and they used to show yankee games on the local tv station in the 80's), and a red sox pocket around ft. myers due to their spring baseball home being there.
I'm pretty sure that Rockies territory extends up the rocky mountains into Montana. I know theres a big Broncos and Avalanche following in central/east Montana and I'm pretty sure its the same with the Rockies.
Whoever said that eastern North Carolina is predominantly Orioles fans is totally incorrect. The Braves own NC, with a much smaller portion of Nationals fans. Minor league affiliation has little to do with it, since NC has the most minor league teams of any state. The Greensboro has a Marlins farm team, Durham has a (historic) Devil Rays farm team, and Kinston has an Indians farm team. It doesn't matter.
The Chicago White Sox part is too big. They have fans on the south side of Chicago and then some of southern Illinois are sox fans, but the north side is all cubs fans. The sox part shouldn't go so far north. They're the bastard team in Chicago.
@evan: Walk around the north side of Chicago, dude ...you'll see PLENTY of folks in Sox gear. Even in the frat zone that is Wrigleyville. Yeah, the White Sox are "bastards" who brought a baseball championship to Chicago within the last THREE years. Cubs last World Series celebration was within the last CENTURY. Here's to 101, dude. Go Sox!
the Twins goes farther west. They have radio affiliates in for western North Dakota. Back in the day, they used to be on WCCO radio and that station goes all over the place, and even up into Canada
Anecdotally, I have to say that the Cubs fanbase extends way beyond the boundaries in your map. Granted, it gets kinda diffuse outside that section of the midwest, but given that WGN has been broadcasting their games forever, they have AT LEAST as much reach as the Cards, for the same reason as KMOX. And I've seen way more Cubs hats in my travels than Cards - the Cards are in no way whatsoever "the team of the midwest", at least not exclusively.
Granted, I'm a Cubs fan. But still, I'm right.
You have the Nationals going way too far south. I am in the Charlotte, NC and everyone in the Carolinas are Braves fans. Nobody likes the Nationals. Nobody.
I made some changes. Check them out.
But, on the Nationals thing... take a look at this site:
http://commoncensus.org/sports_map.php?sport=2
I'm not sure what to think.
You could probably extend the Rays a little farther north in the center part of the state towards Gainesville (thats what we get to see on FSN I believe), and maybe the Braves down that far as well.
Actually, the Braves could probably have more of Florida in general because that was pretty much all the baseball that was shown on TV (TBS) when a number of Floridians were growing up. Seeing as the Marlins weren't created until 1993, and sucked until 1997, they don't have as loyal/expansive of a fan base (Miami doesn't count). I imagine this fanbase will stay minimal in size, especially once they change the name to the "Miami Marlins" (it's fairly safe to say that most people who don't live in South Florida but who live in Florida, don't particularly care for Miami)
I like your changes. The original map certainly didn't reflect the true spatial extinct of Cardinal Nation. I also thing that the Reds fan base should be extended a little farther west in Indiana but maybe not.
As for the fan bases in West Virginia, I would say that most people in southern WV are Cincinnati Reds fans with a Braves fan here and there. The Pirates fan base in northern WV has really dwindled, so there are probably just as many Indians fans there as Bucco fans, especially along the northern reaches of the Ohio River valley. The eastern panhandle of the state (over by D.C.) used to be populated with Orioles fans, but I don't know how that has played out over the past decade or so and if there has been any growth in the Nationals fan base.
The issue about the Mets and Yankees in Jersey and even to a lesser extent Long Island is a tough thing to deal with. I'd say that Jersey is split probably about 50/50 but not at any specific point. And while Long Island is predominantly Mets country there are still a great deal of Yankee fans who live there.
I'll chime in on CT.
I'd suggest looking at a CT county map and making Litchfield and Fairfield Counties solid Yankeeland and then Tolland, Windham, and New London Counties Red Sox Nation. Then, a nice stippled mix in Hartford, Middlesex, and New Haven counties.
Trust me.
As far as the Nationals go, their base still extends down the East Coast into the Grand Strand region of South Carolina. The Braves are the team of the South. No exceptions.
Nobody in South Carolina would ever pull for the Nationals. You would have to get up into the furthest reaches of the Outer Banks and the Hampton Roads area of Virginia to find a single Nationals fan.
For what it's worth, the Mariners radio network extends into Alaska, British Columbia, and out to Montana.
yeah weird that the you gave the Rockies less and said thier not popular, it's like they're the defending NL champs and put together one of the best runs in baseball history
The Phillies area is too big in NJ. The Phils are only in South Jersey; the Yankees have North and Central. And as far as I know, we have no large group of Mets fans anywhere in the state.So, yeah, make the Yankees go into Jersey.
The Northwest part of Indiana needs to be a mixed Sox/Cubs area, as neither has real superiority there.
Northern half of NJ is Yankee country.
There are so many different opinions of New Jersey on here. I don't know what to believe.
you underestimated the power of WFAN and the mets fanbase. you can hear the mets flagship broadcaster all the way to cuba; there is a huge contingent of mets fans in the tidewater region of virginia because of the former affiliation with the norfolk tides and because you can hear WFAN crystal clear day and night there - that orioles orange should be split with the mets.
The fan base in Nebraska is about split between the Rox and the Royals. Pretty much an east/west split. However, Big 12 college baseball is much more important in these parts.
Actually, Red Sox Nation has expanded south: to Greenwich Village in Manhattan and Park Slope in Brooklyn...
It is Padres not the Dodgers that have a foothold in Southwestern Arizona, the Padres trained in Yuma for decades and as a result still have a lot fans here, and are the team covered daily by the local Yuma paper
I think the Tigers should have a piece of Ontario, at least the lower tip of around Windsor. I don't think there are any Jays fans that close to Detroit...
The Rangers area is still too expansive, the Astros should spread further into central Texas and all of South Texas bordering Mexico
I second, third, or whatever what the people have said about Florida. Having lived in North and Central FL for most of my life, I can tell you Braves fans extend to about an hour north of Orlando (the Ocala area). The Marlins do get the East Coast of the state due to the fact that they used to spring train in Melbourne (near Cocoa Beach), but most of Central Florida is Rays, I think. To be honest, yeah, you do need to put some Yankees and Mets colors down there too, as much as it pains me to say that. Tampa is probably more Yankee than Rays, but St. Pete is more Rays than Yankees.
Also, I wouldn't count the spring training influence like other said. Teams are moving so often lately its tough to keep track of what fans are where.
Hey, great updates to the map. But I have one piece of info on the Minnesota Twins (and if you want my cred, I'm a daily newspaper sports editor). The Twins are hugely followed throughout the entire state of North Dakota. On the map, the western part of North Dakota is not highlighted in Twins blue. Also, the Colorado Rockies' fan base reaches up into northern Wyoming, western South Dakota, southern Montana and a little bit into North Dakota. Hope I can help.
i live in nevada...giants own the north half of the state and dodgers own the south...and there's no way the a's fan base rivals the giants in size
Great map, but I think the Cubs go a little further east into Indiana. I live in NE Indiana and it's about 60/40 Cubs/Reds
As a Devil Rays (dumbest fucking name change ever and I refuse to abide by it) fan from Tampa, I know there should be some sign of the Yankees' following in the TB-St. Pete area. The Yankees play Spring Training in Legend's Field, across the street from Raymond James Stadium, which is one of the largest A ball complexes in the country and pretty much a Yankee Stadium theme park. The Tampa Yankees play there year round and before the D Rays, that's all the baseball there was in town. When the Yanks come to town, their fans outnumber the D Rays at least 2 to 1.
Agreed with other commenters that there is no Nationals presence in Eastern NC whatsoever. I know that it is technically Nationals territory (hell, I live in Durham and I'm blacked out of Nationals games), but there are no fans there. North Carolina is all Braves, all the time.
upper michigan is the brewers territory
Hi Droo, I'm hoping I can help with the NJ issue (I live in Jersey City). South Jersey is definitely Phillies area, so that's right. North and Central Jersey though are a mix of Yankees and Mets, though definitely dominated by Yankee fans. The main problem is since both teams are from the same city, there is no way to accurately draw a border, so the fans overlap. There are Mets and Yankee fans in and around NYC/North Jersey, basically everywhere, but there really isn't a dividing line. If the 'rules' allow you to blend the 2 team colors, that would be most accurate. But if you're just looking for the dominant team, it's definitely the Yankees over the Mets.
The Nationals do not have a fan base in South Carolina or North Carolina (All Braves), and the Orioles own southeast Virginia. The Nats should basically be a small center around D.C. and in portions of Northern VA.
It sounds like the Twins' fan base needs to be expanded west and the Rockies' a little bit north. Thanks for all the info. I'm not sure what to do about the Nationals' territory. I believe you guys that there shouldn't be such a big following on the eastern seaboard, but I'm not quite sure where to cut it off. The Jersey issue is a tough one too.
I grew up in southern West Virginia and didn't know a single Pirates fan. There is no way that the southern 2/3s of West Virginia is anything close to being Pirates (or Indians) country. Even when they were decent they didn't have fans in the area. The Reds are big around the Charleston-Huntington area and down towards the Kentucky border and the Braves are popular further south and east towards Virginia. If you see someone wearing Pirates gear (which is rare) around the Charleston area, they are likely a transplant from Pennsylvania or the northern fringes of West Virginia.
I grew up in SE VA and also lived in Richmond for a number of years. All of SE VA is O's territory. I don't think I ever met anyone who was a Mets fan on account of the Tides. Richmond is actually more interested in the Braves than the O's, which is of course due to the presence of the Richmond Braves. The sports radio stations there even broadcast Braves games in the past. Also, I don't think I've ever heard of Pirates fans in VA. WV, sure, but not VA. Western VA should go to the Braves, and everything east of I-95 should be O's. The Eastern Shore part is definitely O's, too. I don't know how much the Nats have spread, but I don't think it's far. Hope that helps.
This may have ben said already, but the only thing I notice(not going to comment on the districts) is that you need to incorporate the Rays' new logo. Well done though.
Television and radio markets played a large role in helping determining the geographical fan bases of many areas that lacked MLB teams. So sticking with these historical markets would be a pretty safe bet.
But its getting a little more blurry than it used to be as teams have moved and been created. Florida, for example. Now the web has allowed people to get attatched to any number of teams that have no bearings on historical or geographical allegiances that the newspaper, radio, and television markets used to promote them.
Interesting side note to further emphasize the role KMOX had on developing Cardinal "Nation" and just how powerful it was. A couple of years ago I read in the Post-Dispatch when they did a farewell feature to their ties with the Cards that on a good night the station could be heard in New Zealand. (In fact, when visiting NZ I did encounter Cardinal fans).
I know this is a Cardinals blog and you like to think your fanbase is more important than it is, but dividing central Indiana (Indianapolis) in half with the Cards/Cubs is a joke. The Cubs have become more popular than the Reds because of recent success, but anyone who knows the area would says its 40 % reds, 40 % cubs, and 20 % cards. Cincy is only two hours from Indy and the Reds games are simulcast on Indy radio. You should seriously consider this if you choose to make further revisions.
This is a Cardinals blog? You sure about that? Try reading some stories on here. This is not a Cardinals blog.
Seconding the request to swap in the Rays' new logo. (Cubs fan, but this is too awesome to not be perfect.)
It'll be tough, but I'll try.
this is true, so true: "Anonymous said...
Whoever said that eastern North Carolina is predominantly Orioles fans is totally incorrect. The Braves own NC, with a much smaller portion of Nationals fans. Minor league affiliation has little to do with it, since NC has the most minor league teams of any state. The Greensboro has a Marlins farm team, Durham has a (historic) Devil Rays farm team, and Kinston has an Indians farm team. It doesn't matter."
the south is so slow to change, they wont be nats fans for another 20 years. i lived on the outer banks of NC, and the only orioles fans were "damn yankees from up north." with tbs airing every braves game in the 80's/90's, you cant compete with that exposure. theres no way the expos, i mean nationals loyalty is that widespread. also, the whole damn map should have an underlying yankees & red sox country...
James said it above, but he was right....the Twins extend into Eastern Montana in North Dakota and pretty much all of South Dakota (although the Rockies have gained a bit of a following in the Black Hills. Cool map, though.
the buffalo, new york/ western new york area is generally cleveland indian fans because of the buffalo bisons minor league team fyi
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